[I] Italië - Italy - Italia

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Vinny
4x5 autosnelweg
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Bericht door Vinny » do 03 aug 2006, 14:01

Juist ja, precies als in het filmpje dat ik hier gepost heb: http://forum.autosnelwegen.nl/viewtopic.php?t=4870 :P
Let op: Sarcasmemodus over een lengte van 10 kilometer.

diabolik333
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Bericht door diabolik333 » ma 07 aug 2006, 12:04

Hi i'm italian so i'd like to tell you everything you need to know about italian autostrade, so don't hesitate to ask me even the most stupid question about our "magnificent" road network :lol:

Looking forward to your questions

Ciao!

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Jeroen
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Bericht door Jeroen » ma 07 aug 2006, 12:44

I saw, by coincidence, an Italian program about Italian autostrades on rai uno*. A lot of Italian people drive like idiots. :shock: The speed limits are not very respected, seems to me.

Well, I've never been in Italy. :oops: On the maps I see that Italy has, in particularly the north, a high density of motorways. Are there a lot of traffic jams? What are the most important points were the traffic gets stuck? (knelpunten)

*Ja, ik heb geen hond van dat programma verstaan, maar het was wel mooi om te zien 8-)
Laatst gewijzigd door Jeroen op ma 07 aug 2006, 14:15, 1 keer totaal gewijzigd.

diabolik333
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Bericht door diabolik333 » ma 07 aug 2006, 13:49

Jeroen schreef:I saw, by coincidence, an Italian program on rai uno*. A lot of Italian people drive like idiots. :shock: The speed limits are not very respected, seems to me.

Well, I've never been in Italy. :oops: On the maps I see that Italy has, in particularly the north, a high density of motorways. Are there a lot of traffic jams? What are the most important points were the traffic gets stuck? (knelpunten)

*Ja, ik heb geen hond van dat programma verstaan, maar het was wel mooi om te zien 8-)
Well, speed traps in italy are really rare, especially in the south (bari) where i usually live, so that in 10 years of driver licence i've always been able to drive at the speed i wanted without EVER having a speed ticket 8-) !!!!
Of course i can do that cause certain highways are less jammed.

The italian autostrade network is suffering because of geografy of our country. As we have in the middle-line mountains (appennini) it's very hard to travel east or westbound whereas travelling north of southbound on the adriatic or the tirrenic coast is rather easy.
So we have 2 main roads that connect the south to the north

A1=Milano--Roma-Napoli. This was the first serious highway built in the early 60s . At the beginning it was divided in A1 Milano-Roma and A2=Roma-Napoli but in 1988 a connecting road was built in order to skip the terribly jammed Gran Raccordo Anulare (the Rome RING). this road has a terrible part that is the bologna-firenze becuase passes through the mountains and it has only 2 lanes (consider that firenze and bologna have both 400.000 inhabitants) and even their RING are on 2 lanes so if you come from Milano, where you have a highway with 3 lanes and in a part even 4 lanes when you get to bologna you have a terrible bottleneck (i'm sure many of you guys have experienced that during holiday time!!! ;) )
Underneath Firenze everything is all right and you can get safely and easily on a 3 lanes highway until napoli where the INFERNO is waiting for you :D !!

A14= Bologna-Taranto. this highway runs on the east coast and connectsthe cities of apulia (bari and Taranto) to bologna; in the southern part is a very good and traffic free road (it's where i break my speed records!!) then after pescara till ancona there are some curves but not that bad.. and after rimini it becomes a 3 lane road till bologna where it connects to the A1
It'also a critic road during summer exodus where all the italian immigrants from the south working in north cities go back home.

A4= it's the highway that cuts the north of italy from torino till trieste passing by milano bergamo brescia verona and venezia. That road has a lot of really critical parts, like the Milano-torino (120 km of work in progress, with speed limits on 60 or lower!!!!! and we have to pay for that
:twisted: !), or the part that crosses milano (a real jam for 20 hours a day) and then the part that goes near venice (tangenziale di mestre, a real narrow bottle neck). Now they're buliding the 4th lane from milano to bergamo and the rest is 3 lanes.

A3= This is the shame of italy. It's the only highway that can bring you to sicily. At least is for free but i have never been on a worse road. 250 out of the total 500 km are on only 1 lane becuase of persistent work in progress that last since the mid 80s!!!!!! :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: and that i think they will last in 2030!!!
So a very good advise if you wanna go to sicily: take the boat from napoli to palermo, or you will regret it!! ;)

The other highways are ok nothing to complain of!

It's just the lack of a part of the A12 (should have been roma-genova) where a 250 km part is still missing (from civitavecchia to livorno) and that makes a bit complicated go northbound from the west coast in toscana.

Well hope this could help.

Let me know if you have further questions!

Ciao! ;)

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Chris
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Bericht door Chris » ma 07 aug 2006, 14:10

I saw pictures of the A3 Autostrada. It looks very scenic, with high mountains, especially in the Cosenza en Castrovillari region in Calabria.

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Jeroen
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Bericht door Jeroen » ma 07 aug 2006, 14:25

Thanks for the information. :)
diabolik33 schreef:A3= This is the shame of italy. It's the only highway that can bring you to sicily. At least is for free but i have never been on a worse road. 250 out of the total 500 km are on only 1 lane becuase of persistent work in progress that last since the mid 80s!!!!!! and that i think they will last in 2030!!! So a very good advise if you wanna go to sicily: take the boat from napoli to palermo, or you will regret it!!
Yes, a while ago it was even on the dutch news. The south of Italy seems to walk a lot behind (this won't be right english :oops: ) compared to the north. However, in several maps it seems to be called as a scenic route. Is that true?

diabolik333
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Bericht door diabolik333 » ma 07 aug 2006, 17:10

yes indeed it's very scenic especially in the final part when you see the sicily in front of you... but in order to get to that beautiful view you lose years of life by sweating on the steering wheel fighting for your survival!!!! :D

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Vinny
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Bericht door Vinny » ma 07 aug 2006, 19:14

I know the A 3 between Napels and Castellamare. It is indeed the most dangerous road I ever drove on. But the view on the Mount Vesuvius is fantastic!
Let op: Sarcasmemodus over een lengte van 10 kilometer.

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Rene
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Bericht door Rene » ma 07 aug 2006, 20:11

@Diabolik:

The first autostrada's of the 1920's didn't have two separate carriageways, and I read they were not always fully access-controlled. Those early autostrada's are often mentioned in the early history of European motorways.

I have a few questions on the history of te Italian motorway network:

1. Do you have a map of the autostrada-network before 1945 ?
2. After 1945: when did the Italian government restarted their programm of building autostrada's ?
3. When was the first real motorway opened (dual carriageway, access-controlled) ?
4. Have all pre-war single carriageway autostrada's been reconstructed into normal motorways, or are there stretches where the old atmosphere of the original autostrada still remains ?
Bereikbaar op emailadres: secretaris [at] wegenforum.nl (zonder spaties, en met apestaartje i.p.v. [at])

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Chris
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Bericht door Chris » ma 07 aug 2006, 20:25

I have a few questions too.

1. Why is the A14 never extended into Taranto, but the Autostrada stops about 20 kilometers before the city.
2. Is it likely that the S16/S379 from Bari to Lecce via Brindise will be upgraded to an Autostrada?
3. Why is the Autostrada network around Nápoli overdimensioned?
4. What is the status from the ringroad of Roma? (GRA) An Autostrada or an Expressway?
5. Is it likely that the A12 Autostrada will ever be completed near the Tuscany (Toscana) coast?
6. Will there be an Autostrada connection with the Slovenia Motorway network in the future?

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Vinny
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Bericht door Vinny » ma 07 aug 2006, 21:53

4. What is the status from the ringroad of Roma? (GRA) An Autostrada or an Expressway?
AFAIK: This is a real autostrada.
Let op: Sarcasmemodus over een lengte van 10 kilometer.

diabolik333
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Bericht door diabolik333 » ma 07 aug 2006, 22:07

Chris schreef:I have a few questions too.

1. Why is the A14 never extended into Taranto, but the Autostrada stops about 20 kilometers before the city.
2. Is it likely that the S16/S379 from Bari to Lecce via Brindise will be upgraded to an Autostrada?
3. Why is the Autostrada network around Nápoli overdimensioned?
4. What is the status from the ringroad of Roma? (GRA) An Autostrada or an Expressway?
5. Is it likely that the A12 Autostrada will ever be completed near the Tuscany (Toscana) coast?
6. Will there be an Autostrada connection with the Slovenia Motorway network in the future?


@Chris

1) That was really stupid cause now taranto inhabitants (city of 250,000 people) have to drive for 20 km on a very very bad road to reach their city, where the speed limit is 50 and where there are a lot of deadly accidents every year, and they can't extend the autostrada cause there's now a town crossed by the road that makes the enlargment impossible!!!
2) The SS16/379 Bari-Brindisi and then 613 Brindisi-Lecce has a very long story but it was another really bad road with a long section with only one lane and a lot of file and accidents.. it was completed only in october 1999. Now it's a good road all with 2 separate carriageways but it has a stupid limit set at 90 km/h that obviously nobody respects (there are no cameras.. just sometimes a police car but we know where!) But there are no plans so far to make it highway, it would be too difficult cause there are parts where it narrows down cause there are town closeby and thee's no emergency lane.
3) the autostrada around naples will never be overdimensioned.. you can't imagine what is naples.. it's the real hell.. if you learn driving there you can drive EVERYWHERE! ;)
4)The GRA is a autostrada although it has a lower speed limit (100-110 i guess) but it's like A12 knoopunt lunetten at 8am .. you can't go faster than 30 km/h!!!
5) The completation of the A12 is a very hard issue. Theorically the project has been approved but there are 2 projects: one that want the highway brand new near the tirreno coast and the second that wants to upgrae the existing SS1 aurelia, that is already a good road from Grosseto to Livorno (130 km/h) and then very bad for another 100 km/h (Civitavecchia, where A12 ends-Grosseto). They're fighting on that and i think if we talk again in 10 year they will still be fighting on this topic :D
6) I know they want to connect the highway but it's a slovenian problem.. we have the highway already, it's their duty to connect it!! 8-)

diabolik333
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Bericht door diabolik333 » ma 07 aug 2006, 22:14

René schreef:@Diabolik:

The first autostrada's of the 1920's didn't have two separate carriageways, and I read they were not always fully access-controlled. Those early autostrada's are often mentioned in the early history of European motorways.

I have a few questions on the history of te Italian motorway network:

1. Do you have a map of the autostrada-network before 1945 ?
2. After 1945: when did the Italian government restarted their programm of building autostrada's ?
3. When was the first real motorway opened (dual carriageway, access-controlled) ?
4. Have all pre-war single carriageway autostrada's been reconstructed into normal motorways, or are there stretches where the old atmosphere of the original autostrada still remains ?
@ Renè

1) Before 1945 there were no real autostrada, and for atostrada i mean 2 separate carriageway
2) The italian goverment started thinking about real autostradas during 1952-53 and one of the main purposes was (apart from modernizing the country) to raise FIAT industry.. better roads, better cars, more income (the economic boom in italy was arriving.. it occurred in the early 60s)
3) The first complete motorway opened was the A1 Milano-Roma together with the A2 Roma-Napoli on 1964
4) I think there are still some parts of old motorways, and some of them are used when they remake the historical MILLEMIGLIA!!

Ciao!

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Rene
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Bericht door Rene » ma 07 aug 2006, 22:27

Afbeelding
The starting point of the autostrada Milano-Laghi in Lainate north-west of Milano in 1925

Afbeelding
Junction of two autostrada's near Milano in 1932, watch the many many HUGE billboards

Afbeelding
Bridges over the autostrada Toscana (Firenze-Mare), 1933

Afbeelding
Italian network of autostrada's (plans of Piero Puricelli, 1935)

Source: http://members.a1.net/wabweb/frames/abhistIf.htm )
Bereikbaar op emailadres: secretaris [at] wegenforum.nl (zonder spaties, en met apestaartje i.p.v. [at])

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E6
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Bericht door E6 » ma 07 aug 2006, 22:49

Dus de eerste autostrada's waren betonstroken zonder middenberm. :?
En ik dacht nog wel eens gelezen te hebben dat de Italiaanse autostrada's uit de jaren 30 de inspiratiebron waren voor de moderne autosnelwegen in diverse landen.

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Coen Tunnel
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Bericht door Coen Tunnel » di 08 aug 2006, 0:42

Vinny schreef:
4. What is the status from the ringroad of Roma? (GRA) An Autostrada or an Expressway?
AFAIK: This is a real autostrada.
Met het nummer A90.


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Chris
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Bericht door Chris » di 08 aug 2006, 5:39

Other questions:

1. What is the real story about the maffia and the A3 Autostrada? There are stories that the maffia want's to keep it's influence in the region, so the road won't be tolled, and the government doesn't have too much influence there. Is that true?
2. What is the status about the "Stretto di Messina" bridge between Messina and Reggio di Calabria? I thought the new government of Prodi decided not to build this bridge, but when you think about 5 million inhabitants of Sicily are seperated from the mainland bij just a few kilometers, even the large cities Messina (248.000) and Reggio di Calabria (190.000) are facing each other, but still need a ferry....
3. Which Autostrada's are most congested?

diabolik333
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Bericht door diabolik333 » di 08 aug 2006, 11:35

Chris schreef:Other questions:

1. What is the real story about the maffia and the A3 Autostrada? There are stories that the maffia want's to keep it's influence in the region, so the road won't be tolled, and the government doesn't have too much influence there. Is that true?
2. What is the status about the "Stretto di Messina" bridge between Messina and Reggio di Calabria? I thought the new government of Prodi decided not to build this bridge, but when you think about 5 million inhabitants of Sicily are seperated from the mainland bij just a few kilometers, even the large cities Messina (248.000) and Reggio di Calabria (190.000) are facing each other, but still need a ferry....
3. Which Autostrada's are most congested?
1) Well the story is this: it's toll free cause calabria is the poorest part of italy with a terrible lack of infrastructures so that was the only road to connect them to "civilization" :D at that time (talkin about the 60s) and for that reason it's always been kept toll free. The mafia plays a role in the work in progress cause when there are new works to do on a road the goverment makes a competion only on small parts of the roads so there are several enterprises working on the same road but at different points. Each of them were found out to be controlled by mafia so everytime there was a process and a terrible delay of the end of the works cause all the work in progress were confiscated.. That's really the shame of italy
2) The bridge on the stretto di messina was one of the winning points for berlusconi when he won the elections in 2001. He promised to build it but there were not enough money for such a huge monster, so now the new goverment (the good one!) finally decided to use those money to renew the waterducts and other things like that. What the hell do we need a bridge like that if then we have a very bad highway to reach it (the A3, indeed!)????
Moreover, the ferry system works properly and there no real necessity of making that brindge!
3)The most congested autostrada is with no doubt the A4 in the milano area and in the Venezia area (Tangenziale di Mestre).

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nielske1990
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Bericht door nielske1990 » wo 09 aug 2006, 11:56

Hier een foto van die bordjes:

Eerst zag ik deze, en ik dacht echt 'Wow!'...

Afbeelding

Daarna kwam het 'echte' werk...

Afbeelding

Ik tel hier 29 wegwijzers en één straatnaambordje...Dit kun je toch niet meer lezen als je hier voorbij komt :nooo: :nuts:

Zelfs als je al die toeristenborden weghaald staan er nog veel wegwijzers :evil:
La meccanica delle emozioni op A67/A270/N270/N279

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Mark
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Bericht door Mark » wo 09 aug 2006, 12:03

Hmm, de Fransen spreken snel, en de Italianen kijken snel zo te zien.

Ik heb ff een kleine en snelle aanpassing gedaan:

Afbeelding

Al ietsjes netter :twisted:

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Via
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Bericht door Via » wo 09 aug 2006, 17:20

Wauw, dan moet je wel echt stil gaan staan. :lol:

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Chris
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Bericht door Chris » wo 09 aug 2006, 17:43

@ Diabolik;

A question:

On which sections is 150km/h as a speed limit allowed?

diabolik333
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Bericht door diabolik333 » wo 09 aug 2006, 17:49

there aren't parts of italian autostrade where you can go 150, because only the society that controls the autostrade has the power to decide where to apply that speed limit but they say they haven't found a right spot, but the truth is that they dont want to take the responsibility of that!!!! so we still go 130 everywhere or even less to some other places!!!!

Pino
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Bericht door Pino » wo 09 aug 2006, 19:27

You're not telling that Italians are observing speed limits, are you? You're supposed to drive 130 or less - that's closer to the truth 8-)

diabolik333
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Bericht door diabolik333 » wo 09 aug 2006, 22:59

Pino schreef:You're not telling that Italians are observing speed limits, are you? You're supposed to drive 130 or less - that's closer to the truth 8-)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

speed limits are made for being overtaken ;)

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overdrive
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Bericht door overdrive » wo 09 aug 2006, 23:15

I think the speeding reputation of the Italians is a little bit exagerated. Last year I drove 140-150 all the time on the autostrada's and got seldomly overtaken.
Eerst verdwijnt de waarheid, dan de wil om die te kennen.

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Chris
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Bericht door Chris » wo 09 aug 2006, 23:40

The speeding on German Autobahns are exagerated too. Obviously not everyone drives at 200km/h, as most US residents think.

But i think we can agree, by Dutch standards, Italians drive like morons, especially in the mountains, overtaking in curves you can't oversee etc. In cities it's a driving hell as well. They say if you learned to drive in Naples of Palermo, you can drive anywhere (well, maybe not in Cairo).

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Vinny
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Bericht door Vinny » wo 09 aug 2006, 23:52

(well, maybe not in Cairo).
12 year old children can drive a car in Cairo, so I suggest everyone can drive a car there. I won't call it a safe place to drive, but that's another discussion...
Let op: Sarcasmemodus over een lengte van 10 kilometer.

N342
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Bericht door N342 » do 10 aug 2006, 0:03

Vinny schreef:
(well, maybe not in Cairo).
12 year old children can drive a car in Cairo, so I suggest everyone can drive a car there. I won't call it a safe place to drive, but that's another discussion...
Just only 'can' drive a car, or are actually driving cars?
*11-08-2017 L.M.

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Vinny
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Bericht door Vinny » do 10 aug 2006, 10:49

When I was there 5 years ago I noticed that children drove cars..., since it was cheaper for the taxi-companies to use them :shock:
Let op: Sarcasmemodus over een lengte van 10 kilometer.