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Road signs on the highway

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donfrulli
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Road signs on the highway

Bericht door donfrulli » wo 15 sep 2021, 20:58

Hello everyone,

After doing some search I came across with this webpage. I hope somebody will be able to help me out.

A while ago when I was driving in the Netherlands, I saw a traffic sign that lowered the speed limit below 100 due to some construction works. After it ended, the sign got cancelled but on the same pole the 100 kmh (+time interval) was also mounted. Does anyone have a picture of a sign like this? If not, where could I find such a traffic sign?

Also, could somebody tell me an example about unusual road signs (e.g. you would expect a 50 kmh limit but it is higher/lower)? It doesn't explicitly need to be a speed sign, but it needs to "go against" the general rule like in my case: the general speed in a city would be 50 kmh.

:worship:

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Vinny
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Re: Road signs on the highway

Bericht door Vinny » wo 15 sep 2021, 21:01

Its not unusual anymore as the default speed limit in the Netherlands is 100 during the day and 130 km/h at night; so they have to keep up signs with the time period everywhere where this is the case.
Let op: Sarcasmemodus over een lengte van 10 kilometer.

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Chris
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Re: Road signs on the highway

Bericht door Chris » wo 15 sep 2021, 21:29

A sign like this?

Afbeelding
100-120 kmh A28 Wezep 02 by European Roads, on Flickr

donfrulli
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Re: Road signs on the highway

Bericht door donfrulli » wo 15 sep 2021, 22:10

This is what I mean:
https://imgur.com/a/rbmIER7

I've seen signs like these lately but I didn't take pictures of them.

waldo79
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Re: Road signs on the highway

Bericht door waldo79 » wo 15 sep 2021, 22:44

One should apply :A1-100: signs with time interval to legally end the :A1-90: for wet surface zones.

Attietattie
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Re: Road signs on the highway

Bericht door Attietattie » do 16 sep 2021, 0:00

Afbeelding
'De beste verkeersdrempel is vriendelijkheid' - Loesje

donfrulli
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Re: Road signs on the highway

Bericht door donfrulli » do 16 sep 2021, 0:17

Attietattie schreef: do 16 sep 2021, 0:00 Afbeelding
Thank you very much for the picture!
waldo79 schreef: wo 15 sep 2021, 22:44 One should apply :A1-100: signs with time interval to legally end the :A1-90: for wet surface zones.
Is this part of the traffic regulations? Where can I read about it? I only found an online document about the plan to replace the signs (back from late 2019 or so).

Attietattie
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Re: Road signs on the highway

Bericht door Attietattie » do 16 sep 2021, 2:48

^^ The so-called RVV (traffic law) says the 'standard' speed on Dutch highways is 130. So if there is a time added to the speed limit, the standard limit of 130 counts for the time that is not being mentioned.
'De beste verkeersdrempel is vriendelijkheid' - Loesje

JB81
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Re: Road signs on the highway

Bericht door JB81 » do 16 sep 2021, 8:56

Last year our government decided to lower the speed limit on motorways to 100 km/h between 6 a.m. and 7 p.m.

But instead of changing the law (the RVV), they put up hundreds of extra signs. My best guess is that was a less complicated legal procedure.

alexanderpas
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Re: Road signs on the highway

Bericht door alexanderpas » do 16 sep 2021, 20:48

To add to this:

The :F8: cancels all of the previous signs. This is needed to get the regular speed limit back to 130 on the highway.

Additionally, the :A1-100: with the time on it means changes the default speed of 130 to from that point on.

If they didn't add the :F8:, it could be argued that the previous sign of :A1-90: was still valid outside of the posted times.

The combination of :F8: with a :A1-100: with posted times prevents any ambiguity.

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duikgek89
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Re: Road signs on the highway

Bericht door duikgek89 » do 16 sep 2021, 21:55

alexanderpas schreef: do 16 sep 2021, 20:48 The combination of :F8: with a :A1-100: with posted times prevents any ambiguity.
It still is confusing since the :F8: contradicts the :A1-100:. To prevent ambiguity, one would need to use :A1-100: with 06:00-19:00; in combination with :A1-130: with 19:00-06:00.

donfrulli
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Re: Road signs on the highway

Bericht door donfrulli » vr 17 sep 2021, 12:00

The reason why I was basically investigating in the topic is because of a case I have. There was a section on the highway last year where the speed limit was reduced to 90. After a few kms this got cancelled with a 90 cancellation sign but there was no other sign on the road whatsoever until the next intersection, hence I increased my speed over 100 for the next ~3 kms and I got a ticket. On the 1st order (?) they argued I was wrong, that the speed on that section is 100 kmh, but I went against the decision with quotes from the rule book I translated earlier and with pictures as proof of my right. I was summoned already and the hearing of my case will be in the near future.
Is there a rule that road signs and police officers are considered to be as primary rules, meaning that no matter what the law says, I have to obey them?

If there is any information you might think could help me, I would appreciate it but so far you all helped me a lot, especially with the picture!

Thank you very much!

waldo79
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Re: Road signs on the highway

Bericht door waldo79 » vr 17 sep 2021, 12:13

Ah, now the arguments you started this discussion are a bit clearer to me.
At what location did you get your fine? You could insert pictures of Google Street View into your posts.

For me, it is hard to understand the authorities point of view based on what you are writing.

Attietattie
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Re: Road signs on the highway

Bericht door Attietattie » vr 17 sep 2021, 12:45

donfrulli schreef: vr 17 sep 2021, 12:00Is there a rule that road signs and police officers are considered to be as primary rules, meaning that no matter what the law says, I have to obey them?
Yes. Traffic signs prevail over laws. And instructions, given by an officer prevail over signs.

For example: traffic from the right has priority. But a traffic light (in Dutch laws, that is considered a traffic sign) prevails. But if there is an officer waving to you to jump a red light, you need to do that.

In your case, I assume there hasn't been an officer who told you to drive 100 or less. But there was a sign which said there is no speed limit anymore, other than the standard speed limit of 130 on highways. So: no officer, no active road sign (since that has been ended by the :A2:) = 130 (on highways).
'De beste verkeersdrempel is vriendelijkheid' - Loesje

donfrulli
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Re: Road signs on the highway

Bericht door donfrulli » vr 17 sep 2021, 16:44

waldo79 schreef: vr 17 sep 2021, 12:13 Ah, now the arguments you started this discussion are a bit clearer to me.
At what location did you get your fine? You could insert pictures of Google Street View into your posts.

For me, it is hard to understand the authorities point of view based on what you are writing.
A76 RE hmp 18.83 Borden bij 12.7.

Based on the legislation they passed, this section is indeed included in the restricted part, however, this does not exempt them from not placing a visible sign as also stated in the legislation, it showing the drivers where exactly is the beginning of the 100 limit section.

The camera is placed on the way to Germany.
This was the place
https://www.google.com/maps/@50.906293, ... authuser=1
where a 90 kmh section was ended by this sign:
https://imgur.com/a/Mxz2wzx
(sorry for the quality, this is the best I could get from the video I recorded later on).
The whole 90 kmh section since then have been removed (a few weeks after my first appeal).
You can see the whole video here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wn-BquZnQw

90 OFF sign is at 0:49. 3:53 (there is a bug in the video before) marks the first sign with the 100 kmh limit. I got fined in between the 2 sign (at the A76 -> A79 ramp).

waldo79
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Re: Road signs on the highway

Bericht door waldo79 » vr 17 sep 2021, 17:16

To me it is clear as there is no sign that legally sets the speed limit at 100, that you were allowed to drive 130 as Attietattie mentioned. 100 could not be enforced as the sign fails.

donfrulli
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Re: Road signs on the highway

Bericht door donfrulli » vr 17 sep 2021, 18:08

Again, thank you everyone for your answer and support. I have never been summoned for anything like this before to a judge. Although this is not something I really wanted but I'm also thrilled to be able to go to court in cases like these in today's EU. 30 years ago I could not imagine such thing.

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Jackbauer1350
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Re: Road signs on the highway

Bericht door Jackbauer1350 » vr 17 sep 2021, 18:45

donfrulli schreef: vr 17 sep 2021, 16:44
You can see the whole video here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wn-BquZnQw

On 4 sec in the video I see a combination of :J20:, :A1-90: and, I'm almost certain, this one:Afbeelding (the 2000 m could be another number).

The line "bij nat wegdek" means the 90 only applies when the road surface is wet. If that was not the case that night the regular speed limit is valid.

This sign combination is used when the road surface of a particular section has poor quality and could be slippery when the surface gets wet.
Laatst gewijzigd door Jackbauer1350 op vr 24 sep 2021, 22:54, 4 keer totaal gewijzigd.

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Palance
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Re: Road signs on the highway

Bericht door Palance » vr 17 sep 2021, 18:45

So you got a ‘beschikking’ from the CJIB (with an M in the right upper corner) and since you didn’t agree with that you now will be summoned, am I correct?
"You know the greatest danger facing us is ourselves, an irrational fear of the unknown. But there’s no such thing as the unknown — only things temporarily hidden, temporarily not understood.” - James T. Kirk

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Attietattie
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Re: Road signs on the highway

Bericht door Attietattie » vr 17 sep 2021, 22:18

donfrulli schreef: vr 17 sep 2021, 12:00 The reason why I was basically investigating in the topic is because of a case I have.
When did this take place?
'De beste verkeersdrempel is vriendelijkheid' - Loesje

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duikgek89
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Re: Road signs on the highway

Bericht door duikgek89 » vr 17 sep 2021, 22:46

donfrulli schreef: vr 17 sep 2021, 18:08 Again, thank you everyone for your answer and support. I have never been summoned for anything like this before to a judge. Although this is not something I really wanted but I'm also thrilled to be able to go to court in cases like these in today's EU. 30 years ago I could not imagine such thing.
The only thing I can do, and it saddens me that I cannot do more, is to wish you good luck with your proceedings. I really hope the pathetic Dutch authorities will see that they are wrong and drop this bullshit.

donfrulli
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Re: Road signs on the highway

Bericht door donfrulli » wo 22 sep 2021, 17:30

Palance schreef: vr 17 sep 2021, 18:45 So you got a ‘beschikking’ from the CJIB (with an M in the right upper corner) and since you didn’t agree with that you now will be summoned, am I correct?
Yes, I got a ticket. Unfortunately, since I was renting a car, the company in subject decided to pay everything in advance without even consulting with me (in their contract they can either ask me to pay for it, or they can just simply do it without me, but it is not included whether they are obligated to consult me on the topic) so it was a pain in the ass to even appeal as I needed to get their written consent too...
Attietattie schreef: vr 17 sep 2021, 22:18
donfrulli schreef: vr 17 sep 2021, 12:00 The reason why I was basically investigating in the topic is because of a case I have.
When did this take place?
This took place almost a year ago. I was waiting for their answer for almost 4 months. I don't know how fast would they reply if the amount wouldn't be fully paid.

Attietattie
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Re: Road signs on the highway

Bericht door Attietattie » wo 22 sep 2021, 21:51

^^ Please give me a date. I can check footage to check which signs there were at the time.
'De beste verkeersdrempel is vriendelijkheid' - Loesje

donfrulli
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Re: Road signs on the highway

Bericht door donfrulli » do 23 sep 2021, 12:52

Attietattie schreef: wo 22 sep 2021, 21:51 ^^ Please give me a date. I can check footage to check which signs there were at the time.
2020 November 4. before 19:00

Attietattie
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Re: Road signs on the highway

Bericht door Attietattie » vr 24 sep 2021, 13:25

August 27th there weren't any temporary signs. Only the regular signs.

November 10th, after entry Nuth, there was a A01-90 with subsign. Right after the exit towards the N281 there was a 90 again with subsign. A few hundred meters further, there was a A02-90 at the right hand side of the road without any subsign..

I don't have any footage of the time in between, sorry. Streetview though, is from september 2020.
'De beste verkeersdrempel is vriendelijkheid' - Loesje

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Wesso
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Re: Road signs on the highway

Bericht door Wesso » vr 24 sep 2021, 14:12

@donfrulli: now that it seems obvious that you were fined unreasonably, because you weren't driving faster than 130 km/h, you could proceed your protest. But perhaps you should reconsider whether it is worth the pain in the ass. You wrote your speed was above 100 km/h but not so much, as I understand. That would mean the fine amount is not very high (?)

donfrulli
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Re: Road signs on the highway

Bericht door donfrulli » za 25 sep 2021, 0:14

Wesso schreef: vr 24 sep 2021, 14:12 @donfrulli: now that it seems obvious that you were fined unreasonably, because you weren't driving faster than 130 km/h, you could proceed your protest. But perhaps you should reconsider whether it is worth the pain in the ass. You wrote your speed was above 100 km/h but not so much, as I understand. That would mean the fine amount is not very high (?)
I will go to Maastricht anyways now. As for me, I already accepted the fact that they stole 300 euros from me. Should they accept my appeal, I will consider that money as an extra..
I set the cruise control to 127. The corrected was 124 --> 257+9 euros + 20 euros administration from Sixt. We agreed if I win, they will send that money back to me.
Attietattie schreef: vr 24 sep 2021, 13:25 August 27th there weren't any temporary signs. Only the regular signs.

November 10th, after entry Nuth, there was a A01-90 with subsign. Right after the exit towards the N281 there was a 90 again with subsign. A few hundred meters further, there was a A02-90 at the right hand side of the road without any subsign..

I don't have any footage of the time in between, sorry. Streetview though, is from september 2020.
I truly appreciate your help!

donfrulli
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Re: Road signs on the highway

Bericht door donfrulli » do 30 sep 2021, 12:41

I thought I'm gonna give you an update. I just left Maastricht, my hearing is over. The judge was a very calm lady, she listened to my reasoning properly, we could talk in English for which I was thankful. She didn't say explicitly but I felt it in her that she would have done the same thing on that day. We also listened to the traffic department's representative. He argued that the A02 sign that cancels the speed is not a "complete cancellation, after the sign, the previous limit set by a sign is considered valid, only the f08 cancels the one before". I told them this is not in the RVV and also, the 100 is not a zone, it's a regular traffic speed sign. (Besides what if there are 3 lanes coming from 3 directions are merging onto the highway and one had a previous limit set to 50 by a digital board due to the morning traffic, the other had a 130 limit and the third one has a 60 kmh limit due to a construction. How can they check from which direction did I come from after the 90 cancellation?)

The judge was understanding, we talked a bit about my background too, she saw I only have 2 other tickets throughout the years so I am hopeful for a positive outcome. She asked for my patience because she wants to go through the rules properly. She said I will be informed via post within 3 weeks.

Attietattie
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Re: Road signs on the highway

Bericht door Attietattie » do 30 sep 2021, 13:49

donfrulli schreef: do 30 sep 2021, 12:41He argued that the A02 sign that cancels the speed is not a "complete cancellation, after the sign, the previous limit set by a sign is considered valid, only the f08 cancels the one before".
I can't think of any other words then: that's a lie.

And it pisses me off. 90% of the drivers will probably think the prosecutor is right.

You should have asked if they will be going to cancel all the other fines if you seem to be right... ;)
'De beste verkeersdrempel is vriendelijkheid' - Loesje

donfrulli
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Re: Road signs on the highway

Bericht door donfrulli » do 30 sep 2021, 15:14

Attietattie schreef: do 30 sep 2021, 13:49 You should have asked if they will be going to cancel all the other fines if you seem to be right...
I had this in my mind last night but unfortunately in the midst of the conversation I completely forgot about it.